tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post1734643990761869892..comments2024-01-28T22:16:50.852-06:00Comments on Mr. Dilettante’s Neighborhood: The Joy of Amateur PunditryMr. Dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13920907647566015611noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-16123720434881900502012-05-11T11:51:26.534-05:002012-05-11T11:51:26.534-05:00Brian; your points are well taken,and yes, this is...Brian; your points are well taken,and yes, this is one of a series of things where the country has made the wrong choice because we've frankly forgotten what marriage law and family law is supposed to be about. <br /><br />We've gone from preserving families and sparing the weaker vessels to "whatever makes you happy" and benefits. In doing so, what have we found?<br /><br />Men are complaining that the child support system--and no fault divorce-- actively incentivizes divorce. I know a bunch of women whose "baby daddies" are merely "sperm donors." We have tax and college funding systems that actively work against people marrying.<br /><br />And now we're giving people the incentive to shack up--coitally or otherwise--for a range of supposed federal benefits without even the possibility of the situations (e.g. naturally achieved pregnancy) for which family law is made. <br /><br />The consequences are not that subtle, really.Bike Bubbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08193546045614393425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-36615806272710138622012-05-10T23:00:27.593-05:002012-05-10T23:00:27.593-05:00if its about gays having sex, they are and have be...if its about gays having sex, they are and have been doing that anyway, and a for a longer time than the Bible has been around.Ginohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606046924332159076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-37429372464234494412012-05-10T21:39:53.767-05:002012-05-10T21:39:53.767-05:00I believe we can do better, and are obligated (to ...<i>I believe we can do better, and are obligated (to future generations!) to try.</i><br /><br />It's not that conservatives reject change out of hand. It's that the manner of change matters. Any one generation in a particular location might have the power to fundamentally change society. But that is to ignore and disrespect the many who have come before and it is to be (at least partially) heedless of those to come. Change can be very good indeed, but when it is pursued recklessly it causes damage. <br /><br />In talking with people in my congregation it is clear that there is an enormous, gaping chasm between kids and grandparents on moral issues. Sexual morality hasn't just changed; it is unrecognizable. To me, this is change that has occurred far too quickly, even if there is some merit in it.W.B. Picklesworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03187309512838841997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-31304990916896914822012-05-10T17:48:14.306-05:002012-05-10T17:48:14.306-05:00I believe we can do better, and are obligated (to ...<i>I believe we can do better, and are obligated (to future generations!) to try.</i><br /><br />Sure, but defining what is better is where things get sticky. We are going to find out, one way or another.Mr. Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920907647566015611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-31547632573705526622012-05-10T14:53:50.014-05:002012-05-10T14:53:50.014-05:00Events of the week have caused me to recall one of...Events of the week have caused me to recall one of my favorite poems:<br /><br /><i>“On Faith,” <br />by Cecilia Woloch, <br /><br />How do people stay true to each other? <br />When I think of my parents all those years<br />in the unmade bed of their marriage, not ever<br />longing for anything else—or: no, they must<br />have longed; there must have been flickerings, <br />stray desires, nights she turned from him, <br />sleepless, and wept, nights he rose silently, <br />smoked in the dark, nights that nest of breath<br />and tangled limbs must have seemed<br />not enough. But it was. Or they just<br />held on. A gift, perhaps, I’ve tossed out, <br />having been always too willing to fly<br />to the next love, the next and the next, certain<br />nothing was really mine, certain nothing<br />would ever last. So faith hits me late, if at all; <br />faith that this latest love won’t end, or ends<br />in the shapeless sleep of death. But faith is hard. <br />When he turns his back to me now, I think: disappear. I think: not what I want. I think<br />of my mother lying awake in those arms<br />that could crush her. That could have. Did not.</i>Night Writernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-73018462383253598112012-05-10T14:28:50.957-05:002012-05-10T14:28:50.957-05:00I excerpted for brevity, not in an attempt to misr...I excerpted for brevity, not in an attempt to misrepresent. Sorry if I gave any other impression. <br /><br />Anyway...<br /><br />If what you are really concerned about is the erosion of family stability, generally, then why wouldn't you want to enlarge the portion of the population able to form stable, legally protected families? <br /><br />It is very difficult for me to see intransigence on this point as originating from anything other than a fundamental objection to the existence and/or acceptance of gay people. <br /><br />I mean, you can say that at the core, you simply object to (or worry about) the discarding of traditions and institutions that you believe have served well. On that point, we will never find a common ground, because I'm simply not a conservative (in the broadest sense.) The "traditional" state of humanity includes a few thousand years of grinding poverty, despotism, tribal violence, and slavery. Appeals to tradition do not move me. I believe we can do better, and are obligated (to future generations!) to try.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799024060528185282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-81900641149169990622012-05-10T12:15:11.914-05:002012-05-10T12:15:11.914-05:00Brian,
I don't mind you posting something you...Brian,<br /><br />I don't mind you posting something you've written elsewhere, because it's on point. Thanks for sharing it.<br /><br />One point of order, though -- you didn't take the entirety of WBP's quote, which read in full:<br /><br /><i>There will be a great deal more pain for everybody in the years and decades to come <b>as we come to terms with throwing away longstanding cultural and moral traditions.</b></i><br /><br />We've thrown away a lot of other cultural and moral traditions, which was part of what I was trying to say in this post. You may be right that, in the greater scheme of things, gay marriage may turn out to be a nothingburger for most people and an unarguable benefit for others. But we don't know that. And I think the second part of WBP's statement is important in understanding what he's saying.Mr. Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13920907647566015611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-77390145015743638512012-05-10T12:07:40.431-05:002012-05-10T12:07:40.431-05:00First of all, are you saying that by the passage o...First of all, are you saying that by the passage of the NC law that the State now has the power to remove children or raid bank accounts? IF this is the case, this is very clearly wrong. At the very least there should be some kind of grandfathering.<br /><br />"What is this seismic change in society that you anticipate by simply broadening a civil institution to a currently excluded minority of a minority?"<br /><br />The seismic change is already in full swing (and I'm certainly not blaming it all on gay marriage; I'm talking about the broader changes that Mr D spoke of.) Children born into or raised in instability have all kinds of problems: increased drug abuse, difficulty in school, etc... The very nature of relationships has changed. Women are demeaned and then many claim it for themselves and we get slutwalks. Men have gotten hurt because the court system does little to protect their interests: wives walk out, take the children and say, "Pay me." And so they get jaded, obsess over sports and the whole macho player thing has become huge. <br /><br />That's all just a mish mash; I understand that. But I'm not pointing to a hypothetical either. The whole social experiment thing (that gay marriage is a part of) is messing people up. It's hurting people in all categories.<br /><br />Now it's a fair question whether or not standing against gay marriage does any good at this point. The horse is already out of the barn. There is now a prevailing story about our sexuality and our intimate relationships that is going to destroy this country. I think it's right to try to stop further change, but I might be wrong. Maybe Nock's idea that you should just speak the truth and trust a remnant to hear it makes more sense?W.B. Picklesworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03187309512838841997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-54425025609785150002012-05-10T11:24:36.140-05:002012-05-10T11:24:36.140-05:00There will be a great deal more pain for everybody...<i>There will be a great deal more pain for everybody in the years and decades to come</i><br /><br />OK, this is the problem. <br /><br />You're talking about things that <i>might</i> happen in the future, that you think might be bad. And you aren't being terribly specific about it. <br /><br />I'm talking about people that are materially hurt <i>right now</i>. People who lose their children. Children who lose their parents. Survivors who have their joint bank accounts raided by spiteful in-laws. Partners who are deported. <br /><br />This is happening, <i>right now</i>. It isn't hypothetical. <br /><br />About half of adults are married. Somewhere between 2 and 5% identify as gay. Assuming that gay people would marry at the same rate as the rest of us (probably a very generous assumption) we are talking about 2% of the population, at most. <br /><br />What is this seismic change in society that you anticipate by simply broadening a civil institution to a currently excluded minority of a minority?Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799024060528185282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-62021083477672003072012-05-10T11:09:50.723-05:002012-05-10T11:09:50.723-05:00"It may surprise you to know that I agree mar..."It may surprise you to know that I agree marriages and families are important, stabilizing forces in society."<br /><br />Not at all. Many people act from good motives and it's best to assume it in the absence of any strong evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />But I disagree on this. The majority of North Carolinians did not vote for a major change. They voted try to hold on to a longstanding understanding. To blame them for hurting families is like blaming the ground for hurting someone who has jumped off of a roof. There will be a great deal more pain for everybody in the years and decades to come as we come to terms with throwing away longstanding cultural and moral traditions.<br /><br />None of which is to say that I'm in favor of busting up same sex marriages or removing children who have already been adopted. But plowing full speed ahead isn't going to help either. At least, I don't believe that it will.W.B. Picklesworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03187309512838841997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-15639993866289963462012-05-10T09:52:37.687-05:002012-05-10T09:52:37.687-05:00I hope you don't mind if I simply re-post some...I hope you don't mind if I simply re-post something I wrote elsewhere. <br /><br />"People who oppose legal recognition of same-sex partnerships claim that they are defending families. Here's the thing: families that consist of same-sex partners and their children aren't some hypothetical thing that could happen. They <i>exist</i>, now. They exist in North Carolina, right now. They are your neighbors. They are your children's classmates. They are my friends.<br /><br />Amendment 1 will never prevent one single child from experiencing the pain of her parents divorcing. It will never prevent one single child from growing up not knowing who his father is. It won't keep any children out of poverty, and it won't protect any children from the chaos of domestic violence or an alcoholic parent.<br /><br />But it will prevent some children from having their parents recognized as a legal family, and all the protection and security that goes with that. It will make orphans of children who lose their one legal parent. It will tell them that the only family they have ever known doesn't even exist, as far as the state is concerned.<br /><br />There is <b>nothing</b> "pro-family" about this." <br /><br />It may surprise you to know that I agree marriages and families are important, stabilizing forces in society. Broadening the civil institution to include families that exist (whether your church or the state recognizes them or not) <i>increases</i> the governments "protect[ion of] those weaker vessels when the marriage breaks down or ends". <br /><br />And specifically excluding same-sex couples from the civil institution not only fails to protect anyone...it has the exact opposite effect.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06799024060528185282noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-49716559617585206032012-05-10T09:21:14.179-05:002012-05-10T09:21:14.179-05:00Someday, when the real weaker vessels of family li...Someday, when the real weaker vessels of family life--women and children--are left completely unprotected, we will look back at a slew of decisions we've made (of which gay "marriage" is only one) and ask ourselves "what were we thinking??"<br /><br />By making marriage about benefits and "love" (or "lust," perhaps more accurately), we're undermining the only real reason for government to be involved in marriage at all; to protect those weaker vessels when the marriage breaks down or ends.Bike Bubbahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08193546045614393425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-2422217736962065912012-05-09T23:13:43.280-05:002012-05-09T23:13:43.280-05:00dude, you summed up everything as if i wrote it my...dude, you summed up everything as if i wrote it myself, but with better grammar and diction.Ginohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09606046924332159076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19838051.post-49782999071516135772012-05-09T21:45:26.501-05:002012-05-09T21:45:26.501-05:00Our society is hell-bent on throwing out old rules...Our society is hell-bent on throwing out old rules and introducing new ones. We are grasping at freedom and giving it away. We may think that we are winning in the process, but we're not. People are already suffering from the sexual revolution (not least children) and this will continue. The Gods of the Copybook Headings applies here.<br /><br />Perhaps one day people will look back, shake their heads and laugh at us, "What the hell were they thinking? Why did they want to throw their civilization away?" Why indeed? If I had to come up with an answer I'd say, "Good intentions."W.B. Picklesworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03187309512838841997noreply@blogger.com