Monday, January 26, 2009

You Know What Would Be Nice?

If Nancy Pelosi would stop pretending that she's a devout Catholic. You can't be putting in money for Planned Parenthood in the "stimulus" package and still be a devout Catholic. Not to put too fine a point on it, but this sort of thing suggests that Pelosi is to Catholicism what Noam Chomsky is to Judaism.

We all know what Catholic teaching is on birth control generally and abortion in particular. It hasn't changed in two millenia. I'm sure that George Niederaurer, the Archbishop of San Francisco, isn't too excited about taking on Pelosi right now, especially after licking his wounds from the Prop 8 battle. But it would be helpful if someone called Pelosi out on this. Besides me and Leo, that is.


Anonymous said...

"You can't be putting in money for Planned Parenthood in the "stimulus" package and still be a devout Catholic."

On the other hand you can, apparently, be an insane anti-semitic holocaust denier like Bishop Williamson and be a totally awesome Catholic. Go Team Morality!

W.B. Picklesworth said...

Nice redirection. How about we return to the subject of the post, Nancy Pelosi? You know, the one who supports the baby holocaust.

my name is Amanda said...

I know Catholics who agree with Chaput feel dedicated to these issues, but maybe it would help to see the issue from the outside.

I was confirmed by Bishop Chaput when he was the Bishop of Rapid City, directly before he was appointed Archbishop of Denver. He was personable, intelligent and kind, and it was always great to have him present at our local mass, or to see him at mass in RC. Since I now vehemently disagree with several controversial tenets of the "Catholic faith," I suppose that makes me "not Catholic." Nevermind that being a part of the church since I was an infant, going to Catholic elementary school and later a Catholic college, whilst attending church faithfully every week until I was 20, has left an inimitable Catholic identity within my psyche. Because I consider some of the church's teachings unconscionable - I am "not Catholic."

Aside from criticizing Pelosi, the point of the article is "if you don't believe what the church tells you to believe, you are not a part of the church." I couldn't compromise the hypocrisy I felt attending mass, and disagreeing with certain things, and so I stopped going. It makes me sad. Maybe Pelosi doesn't want to let go of that, even though she disagrees. The fact is, 500 hundred years ago, there were a bunch of Catholics who, among other things, disagreed that paying money to the church would get them out of purgatory. They weren't Catholic at that point either - they were Protestants. The Catholic church isn't the same church that began two thousand years ago. Things have changed, notoriously slowly, because people who aren't "true Catholics" keep going to church and working to change things. In another thousand years, we'll have a Vatican III, or something, and who knows - maybe at that point women will get to be priests (!), and finally, a whole lot of people will get to "be Catholic" again. For example.

Gino said...

amanda: being catholic isnt about deciding Truth within yourself.

it is about surrendering yourself, body and mind, to what has been revealed. it takes faith.
not many have faith that strong, as Christ himself admonished.

i left the church at 14, returned to faith at 28. why? because i couldnt find anything they were wrong about, much as i wanted to and tried to.

instead i found that what is taught about the church, and the faith, is NOT what the church and faith teach.

come on, can you really, logically believe abortion isnt at least a little bit morally suspect?

do you really beleive the reformation took place over 'buying yourself out of purgatory' when such a thing was never taught by the Church in the first place?

pelosi's evil isnt in her cultural identity as a catholic. it is her misrepresentation of church teachings to justify her poltics, while claiming the status of 'avid' catholic.

lots of folks are cultural catholics, who dont agree with some things, but at least are honest in who they are.

my name is Amanda said...

Lots to disagree with Gino, but I just wanted to say I am curious about what Pelosi is attempting to achieve politically with the "devout" thing. (As everybody knows Catholics are against abortion.) I perused the article linked for references that she's used this to her advantage somehow, but I didn't find any. Bush hung out with the Pope for like three days, and he's not Catholic - any non-Catholic is justified in looking up to the Pope, or at least wanting to meet him. (I am deferring the purgatory "indulgence" question to the history books.)

Mark Heuring said...


I've got no use for Williamson either. And I don't have any idea why he has been recently welcomed back to the Church after being excommunicated. But it's off-topic. And you know that.


I appreciate your honesty, as always. You may yet come back to the Church. While I never really left the Church completely, like Gino I spent a good part of my young adulthood away. But I only started to embrace my faith again when I got to my late 20s.

And I would say this -- while Gino is correct that indulgences were never a matter of doctrine, Martin Luther did the Church a favor by bringing corruption to light. The Church is better and stronger because of his actions.

Brad Carlson said...

As everybody knows Catholics are against abortion.

Ms. Mitchell, is that one of the reasons you left the Catholic church? You can tell me it's none of my business, but I was just curious.

Anonymous said...

One would hope that Pelosi's pastor and/or other people with whom she share's her devout Catholic status would be calling her out on her stand on abortion. The guess here is that they are not. It seems that Church leaders (at least the ones in my area) remain conveniently silent during election time, or stop short of telling their congregations the truth about church positions and which politicians support these postions.

In truth, I think that many church leaders tend to favor many other democratic positions, and they figure that the while they are opposed to abortion "the end justifies the means" which leads to them them soft-peddling the abortion issue. Kind of an ironic thing, as the bible constantly tells us that the end doesn't justify the means.

Amanda, you are possibly what's known as a "pick and choose" Catholic, supporting the beliefs that you believe in, and rejecting those that you do not support. It is not my place in life to judge you, so I will not.

Generosity Boy said...

Pelosi may kill many adults-- if they listen to her drivel long enough they may choke on their own vomit.

So she's go that going for her, which is nice.

Mark Heuring said...

Generosity Boy! It's been years! My kids are wondering why I'm laughing, though.

Anonymous said...

to say that Catholic teaching on birth control and abortion have not changed in two millenia is absurd. You need to fact check that claim. The general thrust has certainly been pro-life, but there has been a great deal of variation in the interpretation of what that meant. And I am not talking about obscure writers; I am talking about major Catholic thinkers: Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Thomas More, multiple Popes, etc. have penned considerably different takes on when life begins, what level of sin abortion is, whether it is allowable for the safety of mothers, etc.


Mark Heuring said...

I suppose, Rich. But I'm almost certain that none of the luminaries you've mentioned would have supported the mission of Planned Parenthood. And of course Pelosi (and the rest of us Catholics) are subject to current Church teaching on the issue. And there's no way that Planned Parenthood passes muster with that. Right?

Pelosi can do whatever her conscience dictates. But it's absurd to pretend that she's Catholic in anything other than the cultural sense of the term. Amanda, the commenter earlier on this thread, has the intellectual honesty to admit that her own views depart from Church teaching sufficiently.

And there's a difference between voting for Democrats (which you do from time to time) and actively crafting legislation that will lead directly to abortions, which is what Pelosi does.