I think they do. the clueless ones are those who keep asking Trump supporters if they know what they are doing.
i understand the Trump thing (me, and apparently Mark Steyn are alone in this). I would like to ask the the Trump haters if they know what they are supporting... or is their disregard for the American blue collar class (the ones that actually make things people want) too thick to see through?
It's not complicated at all. It's nihilism. It's burn this bitch down. It's pretending that a guy who would wipe his ass with anything his supporters hold dear is somehow now the champion of the blue collar class. But it's mostly burn this bitch down. And when we are standing in the smoking rubble, then what? I don't know isn't an acceptable answer, good sir.
have you noticed the rubble is already there? look around at the closed factories, the dying workers left behind. have you ever had a negative wage increase? how about one year after year after year...
Trump is the only one speaking to this. (and he has for several yrs already. this isnt new for him.)
if the GOP doesnt like Trump, they can always take his issues. Talk about Chinese currency manipulation. Talk about trade policy. Talk about saving what few manufacturing jobs are left, and maybe expanding some. Platitudes about a 'new american century' wont do it.
Trump is hope for a lot of people in my class. they love their country, and the middle-class life they used to have. they dont want to burn it down, they want to make it great again... but most of all, they want to feel safe again. they dont feel safe, and havent for a long time. lose a factory job in your 40's, where will you find another with the skills you've developed?
as for the Republican Party: yeah, i agree. burn that bitch down. its sold out the the people it was supposed to be looking out for.
Yes,I have had a negative wage increase. I also took a major pay cut to get a new job, in a different field. I have had to reinvent myself more than once in my career. That's life.
Trump is always talking. That's what he does. He also makes deals. He'll sell you out in a heartbeat. He's a blowhard and a charlatan. He doesn't give a shit about anyone he doesn't see in the mirror.
This election is going to be a disaster. Trump is no solution.
I have had to reinvent myself more than once in my career. That's life. I am no stranger to this concept, either.
but its not easy, nor even possible, for many people to do when they dont have the tools to do so... or have responsibilities that prevent them from acquiring these tools.
besides, is there enough room for 200 million white-collars? certainly, we cant all work for the govt...
He'll sell you out in a heartbeat. my peeps have been sold out already. How is Trump selling them out a viable threat?
He doesn't give a shit about anyone he doesn't see in the mirror. that why i wont be voting or supporting. just applauding from the sidelines.
He also makes deals. He'll sell you out in a heartbeat. He's a blowhard and a charlatan. this applies to the entire Republican establishment... so, they should be comfortable with Donald in their midst.
This election is going to be a disaster. the results of the last 25yrs of elections have already proven their disasterousness. (yeah, i know...China would beg to differ.) its time for this pain to spread upward. the slave revolt wont be pretty.
Trump is no solution. maybe you can tell the rest of us who that solution is, then... or, like the GOPe, do you not see a problem?
my class is already circling the drain. what would 'worse' be for us?
speaking only for myself now: Rubio is a continuation of the same sell out policies that got us here. talk about charlatans? he is a proven one. a slower death is still a death.
Cruz: 'Constitutionalism' doesnt really mean much to me anymore. all i really want is the chance to own my own home again and maybe put a few $ in the bank. this week-to-week shit, begging for overtime, kinda sucks.
Hillary: same shit, different pant suit. see 'Rubio' above.
Bernie: LOL. still, better than the status quo, and funny too.
Trump: everybody keeps saying he's not the answer, but he's the only one addressing the right questions. but he's crazy and stupid and wrong for america.
No. Crazy and stupid is supporting the same politicians over and over again and expecting a different result. And that is bad for America.
maybe the blue collar crew is a little brighter than they've been given credit for?
Me and mine. I may not have much control over it, but I can certainly oppose those who would make things worse.
'Constitutionalism' doesnt really mean much to me anymore.
It will if Heller and Citizens United are overturned.
Trump: everybody keeps saying he's not the answer, but he's the only one addressing the right questions. but he's crazy and stupid and wrong for america.
I don't think Trump is crazy or stupid. I think he's wrong for America, but it's because he's closer to Clinton and Sanders on the ideological spectrum than he is to Rubio or Cruz. He doesn't have a consistent political philosophy; he is a transactional person. If you can't see the danger in that sort of approach, I can't help you.
We're not in the same place as we were during our childhoods. We have competition all over the world for manufacturing jobs. We also have a lot more robots. Every capitalist worth a grain of salt has been trying to reduce his labor costs from time immemorial. That's how it goes. And trust me, having a white collar hardly makes you immune from the budget ax. It's happened to me more than once in my lifetime.
all i really want is the chance to own my own home again and maybe put a few $ in the bank. this week-to-week shit, begging for overtime, kinda sucks.
I agree. But do you really think Trump can help you with those issues? He won't. Deep down, you know that, too. Great that he gives voice to anger and rage, but it's not a rational basis for governance. All I'm saying is that Donald Trump is unlikely to improve the lives of the people he purports to represent. In fact, he's likely to make things worse. It won't end well.
It's not my party. They have one job at this point, which is to keep the 1st and the 2nd Amendments alive. We've lost the rest of the Bill of Rights. That's a fight worth having.
What I find most ironic is the many of the same people who told me I was getting "played" by continually supporting GOP candidates are unconditionally lopping up everything Trump has to say. I'd laugh uproariously if it wasn't so destructive.
It's not too long ago that I would have been in Mr. D's camp on this one. But I'm not. It's obviously not because I'm blue collar. (Well, maybe in Advent.) But something changed for me. And it seems to have changed for a lot of people. I can't speak for those others, but for me....
It wasn't that I lost a job or got a pay cut or any of that. Instead, I lost faith. I used to believe that, given sufficient numbers or better candidates, the GOP would fight for my values. I thought they would fight to reduce borrowing and spending. I thought they would fight to actually accomplish something. I thought they might even risk something in order to gain a prize.
And they do fight. A little. From time to time. Until there's a bit of heat from the Media. But they aren't fighters. They aren't willing to die on a hill and trust voters to see through the nonsense. Instead, they accept the reality that is presented to them by the Democratic Party abetted by the Media Complex and the Education Complex and the Entertainment Complex. They make critiques, sure, but they are afraid to rage against the whole corrupt system. They are cowards. They have no vision. Or perhaps they are charlatans who are getting rich by being the Washington Generals? The results are the same.
Would it make a difference if Cruz or Rubio got elected? In my wildest imaginings I just can't see it. There would be sound and fury. The earth would be raped. Women would be savaged. Minorities would suffer. The media would go into apocalyptic mode in short order. But would anything actually happen? Not really. Oh sure, we would decline more slowly. There would be more oversight from the Media. The economy might actually recover a bit. But not really. They don't have the balls to make anything happen. They are weak. They don't actually believe that our civilization is in trouble. And that lack of vision makes them unfit.
Obviously it makes no sense to elect Clinton or Sanders. The one is Tammany Hall, the other is Ken Kesey.
And that brings us to the charge of trying to burn it all down. Gino rejects the charge because he sees something at least somewhat authentic in Trump. At the very least he's addressing some real issues. I agree that he has brought to the fore some real issues. He may be a fake, but at least he's a fake that brings up something worth talking about. But I don't trust him in the slightest. And I don't think he's a worthy leader of this country.
And so, for me, there is a real element of "burn it down." Not because I want our country to die, but because because there is much of our culture and our political system that isn't worthy of life. Sometimes the forest needs to burn to bring forth healthy growth. And rather than trying to delay it, I'm looking forward to the consummation. Is this unwise? There is a very real possibility that it is. Slow decline might be much more humane than a fiery crash. But how well has it worked to get Washington to be realistic and wise? Spend within our means? Respect longstanding traditions? "Fuck you, give me your vote" they have said. No.
because we can always trust the GOP to block a bad judge nomination...
Not always, but we can always trust the Democrats to offer up bad judges.
All I'm saying is this -- if we leave the field, maybe it will burn. But my guess is that it won't burn. It will simply be a place where our opponents always dictate the terms and there is no critique possible.
Man, you guys are such Debbie Downers: "burn it down", "lost the Bill of Rights", "slow decline". Is it any wonder why you are losing? People may vote based out of fear but right now that's all the starboard side has to offer.
It's all fine and good to be realistic about our problems but you also have to pair that with a hopeful vision of the future. Remember how Reagan would explain the problem and then show us how it was going to get better? I don't see any of that here.
It's all fine and good to be realistic about our problems but you also have to pair that with a hopeful vision of the future. Remember how Reagan would explain the problem and then show us how it was going to get better? I don't see any of that here.
Fair point. I don't see any candidate on either side of the aisle offering a positive vision. It's part of what I'm struggling with as I sort through the events of this cycle.
Trump is offering the most positive vision. Hello??? You listening?
Building a giant wall and sticking it to the Chinese isn't a positive vision, even if he really intended to do either thing, which he doesn't. The dude appends escape clauses to everything he says.
he's offering pride and respect, a resurgence of what we used to be. who else is saying that?
and its selling. even Marwan (my jordanian muslim coworker) has vowed himself to vote for Trump. and most of my coworkers are mexican of some kind or another.
The Debbie Downer criticism doesn't resonate with me. That just signals someone who hasn't been paying attention and wants someone to lie to them and say, "I'm pretty." We're not pretty. We're obese. And we are on dialysis. I don't mean this as a personal attack against anon, though it might be taken as such.
Gino, I am an ad man. "Make America Great Again" is a slogan, not a vision. And it's being stitched onto ball caps that are made in China. It's bullshit.
A real thing he can't solve. It's not 1975 any more. We are no longer in a dominant position in manufacturing. We have competitors all over the world who can do the work for less money. And they aren't going to go away.
Gino, with respect to "offering pride and respect"...who cares? Seriously, pride and respect isn't going to get you your middle class lifestyle working in manufacturing back.
If that's your issue (and it is completely understandable why it would be) then why not look for who is actually addressing it instead of worrying about who prints their T-shirts?
D is right, of course, that the old American manufacturing economy isn't coming back. You are right, of course, that not everyone can be white collar and government employees. If there is a way out, surely it involves figuring out how to compete in manufacturing on something other than price.
Now, if you're hardcore lassiez-faire, you might regard the government's chief role here is to get out of the way, and let innovators innovate. That's a fine idea in principle, but letting businesses do what they do contributed mightily to outsourcing in the first place (at a minimum, it didn't stop it.)
If you're an authoritarian like Trump, you talk about "making" Apple build their shit in the US. Good luck with that.
If you believe there is a strategic role for government in facilitating innovation beyond the normal risk of industry, you might do something like this. Or this.
If you believe there is a strategic role for government in facilitating innovation beyond the normal risk of industry, you might do something like this. Or this.
If there were more evidence that governments and the bureaucracies that they foster were able to provide useful strategic guidance, I'd think about this. More likely, it's a recipe for even more dirigisme. This is how we get Solyndra.
You're missing the point entirely. It isn't that the government provides "guidance", it's that they marshal the resources unavailable to other parties or that industry is loathe to put on the line.
As for evidence: Hoover Damn, the TVA, satellite communications, and the internet. You want more?
I'm not saying I know what the answer is, and I already said I'm not a trump supporter. But I get it. Very few of you do without somebody like me to explain it.
Not one pundit gets it. Cept steyn. And he is not among my favorite pundits, either.
What I do know is that those at the top better figure out a way that allows blue collar peeps a middle class lifestyle again or eventually the blood will flow.
Disregarding the trump train as idiots and what-not just put their own necks closer to the guillotine.
Blue collar jobs that provide services pay very well. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters — we need a lot more of those. A good plumber makes more than I do, for sure. Welders make very good coin. Mechanics do, too. That's where the money is if you're blue collar. The factory and mill jobs aren't coming back, especially given the increased use of robotics. I understand that, for a lot of people of our generation, it's awfully late in life to go back and get the training to become a welder or an electrician. I also understand that it's tough, physical work and difficult for older dudes to do the work.
I get the anger and frustration, Gino. My grandfather was a millwright and I had uncles on my mom's side of the family who worked in the paper mills. They had a good life, too — decent homes, nice cars, snowmobiles, all of that. We still have the mills back home, but not that many people work there any more.
Here is the question — if the blood will flow, whose blood will it be? There's a reason that the local police departments have been buying armored vehicles, dude.
You're missing the point entirely. It isn't that the government provides "guidance", it's that they marshal the resources unavailable to other parties or that industry is loathe to put on the line.
Oh, like the stimulus money. Where did that go, by the way? And when the gubmint "marshals the resources," it takes said resources from someone else. And the resources that are marshaled go to the politically favored. That's been the Clinton game plan forever.
Regarding big government investments that Brian notes, one wonders whether he's taken a look at the numbers for TVA and California water. They are big, they are impressive, and they have had some good effects, but we are not talking about an unmitigated good by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly we need to heed "that which is not seen."
And the internet and satellite communications? It strikes me that it was about 20 years from ARPANET to common internet. Did the DOD create the Internet (or did Gore? Ha!), or did they actively impede that which would have been built?
Hint; AT& T Bell Labs (and their partners) paid NASA to put Telstar into orbit. They got it done before the Mercury Project was over, and government was only involved because NASA had a monopoly on space launch. I submit that, just as a huge driver of computing was banking, we would have had the Internet in the 1970s if government hadn't been driving it.
If you think I'm here campaigning for Clinton, you mistake me. Nice job sidestepping my examples, though.
I asked about the stimulus for a reason. It's not sidestepping your example at all. It's directly on point. Look at what happened to the money. Instead of Hoover Dam, we got giant solar farms and electronic medical records, both in the service of an agenda. If the government is involved, it's going to dictate the outcome. And whether you are campaigning for Clinton or not, and I would guess you aren't, her proposals are more of the same. I wouldn't support it if it came from Trump, or Cruz, or anyone else.
Brian, nice try, but NASA being given a monopoly to more or less drive the truck that delivered Telstar doesn't negate the fact that satellite communication was pioneered by the private sector. You might as well argue that everything is a public-private partnership because you're required to have a postal address in order to run a business.
back to an earlier point.... yes, innovation happens. i'm not saying my plant should go back to doing 1/2 the production with twice as many people as when i started.
BUT... when a sector is declining naturally, the positions lost are lost a lot more often to attrition. nothing wrong with that. having your livliehood of these same workers cut in 1/2 within 20yrs due to open border importation of people here to do exactly that type of work is another thing entirely.
you would all see things differently if we had 20millon wetbacks streaming across the border to do science and write copy for 1/2 what the going rate is, and no benefits, so your taxes can pay for their anchor baby's birth and his free school lunch 5yrs from now. (see? we have socialism already. socialism for illegals and the 1%, paid for by screwing the labor class)
I get it, Gino. There is nothing theoretical about what is happening to you and a hell of a lot of other people. And I could see a day in which someone could design an algorithm that could replace staff copywriters. It might already be available.
The question remains -- what can we do about it? We could try to lock out all the immigrants, but the factory owners might move the factory to Mexico or someplace else. The only way you can truly control your destiny is to work for yourself.
It sucks. We are in a bad place and a lot of my lefty friends are blind to it, as are a lot of my righty friends as well. Your concerns are real and legitimate. I just think that Kingfish Combover is a charlatan and it galls me that he has so much traction in the race. This is not going to end well.
47 comments:
I think they do. the clueless ones are those who keep asking Trump supporters if they know what they are doing.
i understand the Trump thing (me, and apparently Mark Steyn are alone in this). I would like to ask the the Trump haters if they know what they are supporting... or is their disregard for the American blue collar class (the ones that actually make things people want) too thick to see through?
It's not complicated at all. It's nihilism. It's burn this bitch down. It's pretending that a guy who would wipe his ass with anything his supporters hold dear is somehow now the champion of the blue collar class. But it's mostly burn this bitch down. And when we are standing in the smoking rubble, then what? I don't know isn't an acceptable answer, good sir.
have you noticed the rubble is already there?
look around at the closed factories, the dying workers left behind. have you ever had a negative wage increase? how about one year after year after year...
Trump is the only one speaking to this. (and he has for several yrs already. this isnt new for him.)
if the GOP doesnt like Trump, they can always take his issues. Talk about Chinese currency manipulation. Talk about trade policy. Talk about saving what few manufacturing jobs are left, and maybe expanding some. Platitudes about a 'new american century' wont do it.
Trump is hope for a lot of people in my class.
they love their country, and the middle-class life they used to have. they dont want to burn it down, they want to make it great again... but most of all, they want to feel safe again. they dont feel safe, and havent for a long time. lose a factory job in your 40's, where will you find another with the skills you've developed?
as for the Republican Party: yeah, i agree. burn that bitch down. its sold out the the people it was supposed to be looking out for.
Yes,I have had a negative wage increase. I also took a major pay cut to get a new job, in a different field. I have had to reinvent myself more than once in my career. That's life.
Trump is always talking. That's what he does. He also makes deals. He'll sell you out in a heartbeat. He's a blowhard and a charlatan. He doesn't give a shit about anyone he doesn't see in the mirror.
This election is going to be a disaster. Trump is no solution.
I have had to reinvent myself more than once in my career. That's life.
I am no stranger to this concept, either.
but its not easy, nor even possible, for many people to do when they dont have the tools to do so... or have responsibilities that prevent them from acquiring these tools.
besides, is there enough room for 200 million white-collars? certainly, we cant all work for the govt...
He'll sell you out in a heartbeat.
my peeps have been sold out already. How is Trump selling them out a viable threat?
He doesn't give a shit about anyone he doesn't see in the mirror.
that why i wont be voting or supporting. just applauding from the sidelines.
He also makes deals. He'll sell you out in a heartbeat. He's a blowhard and a charlatan.
this applies to the entire Republican establishment... so, they should be comfortable with Donald in their midst.
This election is going to be a disaster.
the results of the last 25yrs of elections have already proven their disasterousness. (yeah, i know...China would beg to differ.) its time for this pain to spread upward. the slave revolt wont be pretty.
Trump is no solution.
maybe you can tell the rest of us who that solution is, then... or, like the GOPe, do you not see a problem?
Yeah, I see the problem, but I don't see a solution. I would like to keep things from getting worse.
worse for whom?
my class is already circling the drain. what would 'worse' be for us?
speaking only for myself now:
Rubio is a continuation of the same sell out policies that got us here. talk about charlatans? he is a proven one. a slower death is still a death.
Cruz: 'Constitutionalism' doesnt really mean much to me anymore. all i really want is the chance to own my own home again and maybe put a few $ in the bank. this week-to-week shit, begging for overtime, kinda sucks.
Hillary: same shit, different pant suit. see 'Rubio' above.
Bernie: LOL. still, better than the status quo, and funny too.
Trump: everybody keeps saying he's not the answer, but he's the only one addressing the right questions. but he's crazy and stupid and wrong for america.
No. Crazy and stupid is supporting the same politicians over and over again and expecting a different result. And that is bad for America.
maybe the blue collar crew is a little brighter than they've been given credit for?
worse for whom?
Me and mine. I may not have much control over it, but I can certainly oppose those who would make things worse.
'Constitutionalism' doesnt really mean much to me anymore.
It will if Heller and Citizens United are overturned.
Trump: everybody keeps saying he's not the answer, but he's the only one addressing the right questions. but he's crazy and stupid and wrong for america.
I don't think Trump is crazy or stupid. I think he's wrong for America, but it's because he's closer to Clinton and Sanders on the ideological spectrum than he is to Rubio or Cruz. He doesn't have a consistent political philosophy; he is a transactional person. If you can't see the danger in that sort of approach, I can't help you.
We're not in the same place as we were during our childhoods. We have competition all over the world for manufacturing jobs. We also have a lot more robots. Every capitalist worth a grain of salt has been trying to reduce his labor costs from time immemorial. That's how it goes. And trust me, having a white collar hardly makes you immune from the budget ax. It's happened to me more than once in my lifetime.
all i really want is the chance to own my own home again and maybe put a few $ in the bank. this week-to-week shit, begging for overtime, kinda sucks.
I agree. But do you really think Trump can help you with those issues? He won't. Deep down, you know that, too. Great that he gives voice to anger and rage, but it's not a rational basis for governance. All I'm saying is that Donald Trump is unlikely to improve the lives of the people he purports to represent. In fact, he's likely to make things worse. It won't end well.
But do you really think Trump can help you with those issues?
nope. and i never said he would.
i'm just applauding.
we need a new party. maybe this might provide a seed for a beginning. the GOP deserves to die in a fire. it has earned that.
we need a new party. maybe this might provide a seed for a beginning. the GOP deserves to die in a fire. it has earned that.
And in the meantime, the Democrats run roughshod over the country for how long? And at what cost?
I can't applaud that, dude.
who ran roughshod over the last spending bill?
dude, its over. your party is a traitor to you. kill it and bury it.
it wont be 'different this time'.
or are you falling for that cheap line, again?
It's not my party. They have one job at this point, which is to keep the 1st and the 2nd Amendments alive. We've lost the rest of the Bill of Rights. That's a fight worth having.
because we can always trust the GOP to block a bad judge nomination...
as for the 2A: we may lose it in the courts (i expect it in my lifetime), but there are also facts on the ground that say 'enforce it, if you dare.'
when you coming back to visit? this conversation would be more enjoyable over some tacos and beer. :)
What I find most ironic is the many of the same people who told me I was getting "played" by continually supporting GOP candidates are unconditionally lopping up everything Trump has to say. I'd laugh uproariously if it wasn't so destructive.
he hasnt 'played' them yet. give it time, after he takes office and they find out about it...
then you will both be right.
It's not too long ago that I would have been in Mr. D's camp on this one. But I'm not. It's obviously not because I'm blue collar. (Well, maybe in Advent.) But something changed for me. And it seems to have changed for a lot of people. I can't speak for those others, but for me....
It wasn't that I lost a job or got a pay cut or any of that. Instead, I lost faith. I used to believe that, given sufficient numbers or better candidates, the GOP would fight for my values. I thought they would fight to reduce borrowing and spending. I thought they would fight to actually accomplish something. I thought they might even risk something in order to gain a prize.
And they do fight. A little. From time to time. Until there's a bit of heat from the Media. But they aren't fighters. They aren't willing to die on a hill and trust voters to see through the nonsense. Instead, they accept the reality that is presented to them by the Democratic Party abetted by the Media Complex and the Education Complex and the Entertainment Complex. They make critiques, sure, but they are afraid to rage against the whole corrupt system. They are cowards. They have no vision. Or perhaps they are charlatans who are getting rich by being the Washington Generals? The results are the same.
Would it make a difference if Cruz or Rubio got elected? In my wildest imaginings I just can't see it. There would be sound and fury. The earth would be raped. Women would be savaged. Minorities would suffer. The media would go into apocalyptic mode in short order. But would anything actually happen? Not really. Oh sure, we would decline more slowly. There would be more oversight from the Media. The economy might actually recover a bit. But not really. They don't have the balls to make anything happen. They are weak. They don't actually believe that our civilization is in trouble. And that lack of vision makes them unfit.
Obviously it makes no sense to elect Clinton or Sanders. The one is Tammany Hall, the other is Ken Kesey.
And that brings us to the charge of trying to burn it all down. Gino rejects the charge because he sees something at least somewhat authentic in Trump. At the very least he's addressing some real issues. I agree that he has brought to the fore some real issues. He may be a fake, but at least he's a fake that brings up something worth talking about. But I don't trust him in the slightest. And I don't think he's a worthy leader of this country.
And so, for me, there is a real element of "burn it down." Not because I want our country to die, but because because there is much of our culture and our political system that isn't worthy of life. Sometimes the forest needs to burn to bring forth healthy growth. And rather than trying to delay it, I'm looking forward to the consummation. Is this unwise? There is a very real possibility that it is. Slow decline might be much more humane than a fiery crash. But how well has it worked to get Washington to be realistic and wise? Spend within our means? Respect longstanding traditions? "Fuck you, give me your vote" they have said. No.
W.B.
because we can always trust the GOP to block a bad judge nomination...
Not always, but we can always trust the Democrats to offer up bad judges.
All I'm saying is this -- if we leave the field, maybe it will burn. But my guess is that it won't burn. It will simply be a place where our opponents always dictate the terms and there is no critique possible.
Yet right. Keep fielding your plastic army men. At least they are fun to play with since all your fighting is fantasy anyway.
Man, you guys are such Debbie Downers: "burn it down", "lost the Bill of Rights", "slow decline". Is it any wonder why you are losing? People may vote based out of fear but right now that's all the starboard side has to offer.
It's all fine and good to be realistic about our problems but you also have to pair that with a hopeful vision of the future. Remember how Reagan would explain the problem and then show us how it was going to get better? I don't see any of that here.
We are beyond Reagan, who couldn't get elected in his home state today.
It's all fine and good to be realistic about our problems but you also have to pair that with a hopeful vision of the future. Remember how Reagan would explain the problem and then show us how it was going to get better? I don't see any of that here.
Fair point. I don't see any candidate on either side of the aisle offering a positive vision. It's part of what I'm struggling with as I sort through the events of this cycle.
Trump is offering the most positive vision. Hello??? You listening?
Trump is offering the most positive vision. Hello??? You listening?
Building a giant wall and sticking it to the Chinese isn't a positive vision, even if he really intended to do either thing, which he doesn't. The dude appends escape clauses to everything he says.
'Make America Great Again!'
he's offering pride and respect, a resurgence of what we used to be.
who else is saying that?
and its selling. even Marwan (my jordanian muslim coworker) has vowed himself to vote for Trump. and most of my coworkers are mexican of some kind or another.
The Debbie Downer criticism doesn't resonate with me. That just signals someone who hasn't been paying attention and wants someone to lie to them and say, "I'm pretty." We're not pretty. We're obese. And we are on dialysis. I don't mean this as a personal attack against anon, though it might be taken as such.
Gino, I am an ad man. "Make America Great Again" is a slogan, not a vision. And it's being stitched onto ball caps that are made in China. It's bullshit.
yes, some caps are made in china, but those are not the campaign hats that trump is sending out. others are profiteering with knockoffs. check snopes.
I looked at Snopes. Glad that Trump found a local supplier. Doesn't change my larger point one bit.
For years now, I've heard trump complaining about how difficult it is to buy anything made in USA. Literally, for years... It's a real thing for him.
A real thing he can't solve. It's not 1975 any more. We are no longer in a dominant position in manufacturing. We have competitors all over the world who can do the work for less money. And they aren't going to go away.
Gino, with respect to "offering pride and respect"...who cares? Seriously, pride and respect isn't going to get you your middle class lifestyle working in manufacturing back.
If that's your issue (and it is completely understandable why it would be) then why not look for who is actually addressing it instead of worrying about who prints their T-shirts?
D is right, of course, that the old American manufacturing economy isn't coming back. You are right, of course, that not everyone can be white collar and government employees. If there is a way out, surely it involves figuring out how to compete in manufacturing on something other than price.
Now, if you're hardcore lassiez-faire, you might regard the government's chief role here is to get out of the way, and let innovators innovate. That's a fine idea in principle, but letting businesses do what they do contributed mightily to outsourcing in the first place (at a minimum, it didn't stop it.)
If you're an authoritarian like Trump, you talk about "making" Apple build their shit in the US. Good luck with that.
If you believe there is a strategic role for government in facilitating innovation beyond the normal risk of industry, you might do something like this. Or this.
If you believe there is a strategic role for government in facilitating innovation beyond the normal risk of industry, you might do something like this. Or this.
If there were more evidence that governments and the bureaucracies that they foster were able to provide useful strategic guidance, I'd think about this. More likely, it's a recipe for even more dirigisme. This is how we get Solyndra.
You're missing the point entirely. It isn't that the government provides "guidance", it's that they marshal the resources unavailable to other parties or that industry is loathe to put on the line.
As for evidence: Hoover Damn, the TVA, satellite communications, and the internet. You want more?
(Heh, I said "Hoover Damn". I'd blame autocorrect, but I'm on an actual keyboard.)
I'm not saying I know what the answer is, and I already said I'm not a trump supporter. But I get it. Very few of you do without somebody like me to explain it.
Not one pundit gets it. Cept steyn. And he is not among my favorite pundits, either.
What I do know is that those at the top better figure out a way that allows blue collar peeps a middle class lifestyle again or eventually the blood will flow.
Disregarding the trump train as idiots and what-not just put their own necks closer to the guillotine.
Blue collar jobs that provide services pay very well. Plumbers, electricians, carpenters — we need a lot more of those. A good plumber makes more than I do, for sure. Welders make very good coin. Mechanics do, too. That's where the money is if you're blue collar. The factory and mill jobs aren't coming back, especially given the increased use of robotics. I understand that, for a lot of people of our generation, it's awfully late in life to go back and get the training to become a welder or an electrician. I also understand that it's tough, physical work and difficult for older dudes to do the work.
I get the anger and frustration, Gino. My grandfather was a millwright and I had uncles on my mom's side of the family who worked in the paper mills. They had a good life, too — decent homes, nice cars, snowmobiles, all of that. We still have the mills back home, but not that many people work there any more.
Here is the question — if the blood will flow, whose blood will it be? There's a reason that the local police departments have been buying armored vehicles, dude.
You're missing the point entirely. It isn't that the government provides "guidance", it's that they marshal the resources unavailable to other parties or that industry is loathe to put on the line.
Oh, like the stimulus money. Where did that go, by the way? And when the gubmint "marshals the resources," it takes said resources from someone else. And the resources that are marshaled go to the politically favored. That's been the Clinton game plan forever.
If you think I'm here campaigning for Clinton, you mistake me. Nice job sidestepping my examples, though.
Regarding big government investments that Brian notes, one wonders whether he's taken a look at the numbers for TVA and California water. They are big, they are impressive, and they have had some good effects, but we are not talking about an unmitigated good by any stretch of the imagination. Certainly we need to heed "that which is not seen."
And the internet and satellite communications? It strikes me that it was about 20 years from ARPANET to common internet. Did the DOD create the Internet (or did Gore? Ha!), or did they actively impede that which would have been built?
Hint; AT& T Bell Labs (and their partners) paid NASA to put Telstar into orbit. They got it done before the Mercury Project was over, and government was only involved because NASA had a monopoly on space launch. I submit that, just as a huge driver of computing was banking, we would have had the Internet in the 1970s if government hadn't been driving it.
If you think I'm here campaigning for Clinton, you mistake me. Nice job sidestepping my examples, though.
I asked about the stimulus for a reason. It's not sidestepping your example at all. It's directly on point. Look at what happened to the money. Instead of Hoover Dam, we got giant solar farms and electronic medical records, both in the service of an agenda. If the government is involved, it's going to dictate the outcome. And whether you are campaigning for Clinton or not, and I would guess you aren't, her proposals are more of the same. I wouldn't support it if it came from Trump, or Cruz, or anyone else.
And see Bubba's comment.
AT& T Bell Labs (and their partners) paid NASA to put Telstar into orbit
That's a fine example of a public-private partnership. Thank you for conceding that point.
I submit that, just as a huge driver of computing was banking, we would have had the Internet in the 1970s if government hadn't been driving it.
That's a faith-based counterfactual. Funny, though.
I wouldn't support it if it came from Trump, or Cruz, or anyone else.
Well, Trump and Cruz, much to their credit, propose to do nothing at all, which has a fine track record in terms of innovation.
Well, Trump and Cruz, much to their credit, propose to do nothing at all, which has a fine track record in terms of innovation.
Given the ubiquity of Uncle Sugar, doing nothing would be an innovation. ;)
Brian, nice try, but NASA being given a monopoly to more or less drive the truck that delivered Telstar doesn't negate the fact that satellite communication was pioneered by the private sector. You might as well argue that everything is a public-private partnership because you're required to have a postal address in order to run a business.
back to an earlier point....
yes, innovation happens. i'm not saying my plant should go back to doing 1/2 the production with twice as many people as when i started.
BUT... when a sector is declining naturally, the positions lost are lost a lot more often to attrition. nothing wrong with that.
having your livliehood of these same workers cut in 1/2 within 20yrs due to open border importation of people here to do exactly that type of work is another thing entirely.
you would all see things differently if we had 20millon wetbacks streaming across the border to do science and write copy for 1/2 what the going rate is, and no benefits, so your taxes can pay for their anchor baby's birth and his free school lunch 5yrs from now. (see? we have socialism already. socialism for illegals and the 1%, paid for by screwing the labor class)
I get it, Gino. There is nothing theoretical about what is happening to you and a hell of a lot of other people. And I could see a day in which someone could design an algorithm that could replace staff copywriters. It might already be available.
The question remains -- what can we do about it? We could try to lock out all the immigrants, but the factory owners might move the factory to Mexico or someplace else. The only way you can truly control your destiny is to work for yourself.
It sucks. We are in a bad place and a lot of my lefty friends are blind to it, as are a lot of my righty friends as well. Your concerns are real and legitimate. I just think that Kingfish Combover is a charlatan and it galls me that he has so much traction in the race. This is not going to end well.
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